On the day of the film’s international premiere, I spoke with German director/actor/writer Fabian Stumm about his sophomore feature film Sad Jokes, his directing process, gay storytelling, his favorite films, and more! Cut for time: a loooong sidebar on how much we both love Sissy Spacek.
This interview has been lightly edited for length and clarity.
BOSTON HASSLE: I was going to ask how the festival feels when you actually have a film in it. I assume you’re just being shuttled around a bit.
Fabian Stumm: Kind of. Lots of press and talking which is fun but I hope I can catch some movies.
BH: There are so many movies playing but I feel like I’ve gotten everything I wanted. A couple things, like I’m not going to be able to see Babygirl but-
FS: I’m excited to see that. Sometimes the big ones are coming out anyway, you can catch them early but don’t need to.
BH: That’s the thing, like I don’t need to try to get into Megalopolis. But that’s exactly why I wanted to watch Sad Jokes. I knew I would like it and I assume it won’t be out in my area for a while. But there are things that come out on like, October 15th. I’m not worried about it. I’ll see Anora soon.
FS: That’s exactly it, I need to see Anora but it’ll be out in four weeks.
BH: Sad Jokes seems pulled from your real life, but how do you do that? What do you choose to enhance or make more dramatic? How do you make a narrative with a character and not just a diary?
FS: It’s funny– because I obviously wrote and directed it and I’m the lead actor, everyone assumes it is my life, which is kind of part of the genesis of it and part of the fun, but there’s more small elements of my real life that I use as springboards for the film. I have a very close friend who has two kids and we raise them together; I’m not really the father, but we created this modern family structure that works really well. But in the film I use that as sort of a window into this story of the mother with depression. So that’s not really my personal life. But things that happened to me– after making my first film I was on tour a lot, going to a lot of festivals, and a lot of weird, stupid things happened to me. Like I broke my finger playing with my dog, and I did a lot of promotion with a big bandage on my hand. I just thought it was weird and silly.
BH: That’s what I loved about the film. It felt like it was all about those little moments in between when you’re just trying to be alive. Real life keeps interfering.
FS: Not a lot of action happens in the film, right? It’s more like you say, life happens and you just have to adjust.
BH: Your character in the film is also a filmmaker – what number film is this for you?
FS: It’s the second feature film I’ve directed. I did one short, one medium, and this is the second feature.
BH: What’s something you learned on the first film that you knew you needed to bring to the second film?
FS: The first film was a drama with very few comedic elements, and I wasn’t expecting the audience to enjoy it so much, especially the lightness of it. When it was at the Berlin Film Festival last year, I remember sitting in the audience and they were laughing a lot more than I anticipated. First it was a little bit irritating, [but] then I really loved it. I thought this was so comforting in a way, because they saw the drama and were able to laugh together as such a release. When I started the screenplay for Sad Jokes, I was sure I wanted to enhance those comedic elements and see how far I could push it, even being slapstick-y and silly and funny and trying to balance those off of each other and see what happens.
BH: Exactly, and that’s the title. I loved those moments of levity, they felt so down to earth. My main reaction whenever I watch a movie with a gay lead character, even if it’s a horror movie or terrible things happen, I’m always just like “Wow! I’m so happy this movie’s not about coming out!”
FS: [laughs] I agree.
BH: I don’t need that anymore! I need movies about homosexual adults.
FS: I completely agree. I get why there’s still a need for coming out movies, but people like us in our phase of life need different stories.
BH: This movie I related to a lot more than Love, Simon because it’s about a tired thirty-something. This is what happens when you’ve established so much of your own life and there’s maybe a couple things still out of your reach, like a partner, and you’re just like “Well I’ve got a lot going on.”
FS: I don’t know how it’s like in North America, but in Germany, where we premiered, a lot of people talked about how unique the approach was to not explain his sexuality, just show, and that proves that there’s so much further to go. That shouldn’t be “refreshing.” It should just be normal.
BH: I love how matter of fact the character really is. Even when he’s talking to people he’s just met, like at his art class.
BH: How do you approach directing yourself?
FS: I have a very great assistant director, Nicola Heim, who knows me quite well, and her main job is to make sure it doesn’t get too personal. I want there to be a very thin line between the character and myself, so that’s really helpful that she keeps an eye on me while I’m acting. Also, since I am so focused on the other actors and actresses, it’s liberating, since I’m not so focused on myself. I’m just really trying to be in the moment with them. You can also direct someone while acting with them. If I change my intonation here or there, or my rhythm, they pick it up, and it’s really like a weird dance we enter together. It’s more about letting go and trusting everything. We work a lot in advance and prepare for months and months so when we’re there everyone knows what they’re doing and I can be just focused on acting with the other people.
BH: That makes a lot of sense, being able to trust your collaborators.
FS: Exactly. It’s never like “Where are we going with this?” Everything is set. It’s like painting on a canvas that’s already very well established.
BH: I was thinking about that a lot with the sex scene. Well, you don’t actually get to have sex in that scene, but it felt very intimate and real. You’re exploring something with this new person, and it’s exciting, but you have to keep checking on the kid. It might have been my favorite scene.
FS: That’s nice to hear, because I like it also. The actor is also a good friend of mine and was the lead actor in my first film, where we played a couple. So we had already established a lot of physical trust. It’s very hard to do a scene like that if you don’t know each other or like each other. So that felt really easy. I was very proud of him because it’s hard to be on camera and just sit there and listen to that baby phone. He’s great.
BH: I’m always so interested in these smaller productions because you wrote, directed, and starred, so you’re all over this thing. Where did you film? Did you just use places you knew or go location scouting? I talked to Sook-Yin Lee who did Paying for It, and she was speaking to me from her actual house that was used in the film. I was wondering the same thing with your character’s apartment because the movie collection felt very curated.
FS: We did do location scouting, but yes, that is actually my bedroom. The only scenes there are with the kid and the almost sex scene, those are both in my room. It was very practical. I do have a wonderful set designer/art director/location manager, but when we started talking about what I want in the shot and described what I wanted on the shelves to show his taste, they said, “Why don’t we just use yours since that’s what you have in mind?” Everything else is a new location, though. We shot in a museum in Berlin and a big cinema. We had to get permission to shoot outside with the statues. We did that for the first film without permission, but it can get a bit scary with the crowds, so official is better.
BH: Did Sad Jokes premiere at Berlin earlier this year?
FS: This premiered at Munich about two months ago, and it was super nice. I got two awards for best director and the critics award.
BH: I always wonder what the circuit looks like for something like this. Was it just Munich so far and now you’re in Toronto?
FS: Yeah, and there’s a lot coming up the next few months. It’s actually coming out in German cinemas on the 12th. So today I’m here, then going to Berlin in the morning. It’s going to be a lot.
BH: What’s the best film you’ve seen recently? Have you been able to watch stuff or have you been so in the weeds?
FS: This is a question I want to get right so if you have a moment, I will look on my Letterboxd. One of my favorites this year was Crossing, which was really lovely. I also really loved May December. It felt like it could have been an Altman film back then. The way they interact, the look of it, I was really in it. I loved it.
BH: Do you have a top four set up on Letterboxd?
FS: Of course. 3 Women. That’s a film that if I just think about it I feel at home. Il Posto, César and Rosalie, and a German film called It (1966). It started the New German Cinema wave. It’s amazing.
BH: I recently got to see The Bitter Tears of Petra Von Kant and I’m looking forward to more Fassbinder. I’m just waiting for them to play in the theater.
FS: I’m dreaming of casting the daughter from Petra Von Kant.
BH: So do you have your next project lined up?
FS: Several things, actually. Early next year another feature film about two women in a relationship in their late 50s and have a daughter together, so it’s like a mirror story with very different characters. Much darker and more serious. And then I’m working on a noir revenge thing and a musical.
BH: All over the place.
FS: It’s so funny, because with this film it feels like a door has opened. I was working as an actor for twenty years, and now it feels like people are honestly interested in what I am doing.
BH: Whenever I cover a festival it feels so easy to write about the big movies. Like, I’m glad I saw Nightbitch, but I’m always looking for movies like Sad Jokes. I want to have something out there about it so when it premieres in the US I can give people a heads up. I want to champion these smaller things.
FS: It’s so helpful to have that kind of exposure.
BH: I try to write things for myself because I’m interested in them, and then I find out people read it and I’m always shocked.
FS: When I write something and start to produce a film, I never think about where it’s going to go. And then you go from making things with friends to Toronto.
BH: Any last things you want to say about the film?
FS: Just go see it when you can!
BH: And it premieres in about an hour, right?
FS: Yes. It’s good I was talking to you, because I’m not nervous anymore!
Sad Jokes premiered this year the Toronto International Film Festival and opens in Germany this week! Keep an eye out for an international release!
