On the eve of her latest film’s premiere, I got to chat with director/writer/Canadian legend Sook-Yin Lee about her artistic process, flying boxes for cats, and one particular Mr. Noodle.
BOSTON HASSLE: I saw the listing for Paying for It when the TIFF lineup dropped, realized I had heard of the book, then saw that you were directing the film. I thought it was such an interesting approach and really enjoyed the film. I read the graphic novel a few weeks ago too.
SOOK-YIN LEE: Well done. You did your research.
BH: How long had you been planning to adapt the book?
SYL: Chester [Brown] is one of the most brilliant storytellers in the world. When Paying for It came out, I was very struck by it. I found it to be a very bold and important work. To me it spoke about not only sex worker rights in his argument for decriminalizaliton for consensual sex work, [but] everything to do with labor rights, POC rights, women’s rights. I stood in line because there were a lot of great filmmakers approaching him saying they wanted to make it into a movie. But he let me do it. He let me do it because he trusted me. We’re family. He knew in my hands it wouldn’t turn into a Judd Apatow funny boy movie. He knew the intention to uphold the essence of his work was there with me.
At first I thought of the book as a storyboard, sequential art. Not so. It became very clear to me that a graphic novel is very different from a movie. Writers can afford to go down little tunnels. It was very episodic and a political treatise. The last fifth of the book is academic and historic notes. He’s very rigorous. He was concerned about protectign the privacy of the sex workers he was involved with. He was similarly protective of the privacy of his friends and myself, who he depicted. When I read it I was like, “Wow, you were really spare in the details!”
A movie requires three acts and a transformation of character. I said to Chester, “A movie requires characters with flaws who change,” and he said “But I have no flaws.” I said, “That’s a flaw. I’m writing that down.”
BH: Sounds like him.
SYL: He’s very logical. He’s almost flawless, but he’s not without his flaws. I decided to expand the canvas because I was there, and I said to him, “I think I can make it work if it’s about a long-term couple who love each other dearly whose romantic aspect of their relationship is fading, which happens a lot, and asking ‘What if we open up the relationship?’” Back then he was like, “If that’s what you want to do then sure, I’m game, let’s try it”. He’s a shy, introverted cartoonist with no desire to flirt, no ability to flirt, no desire for a relationship, and is kind of disillusioned with romantic love. Meanwhile, she has a much more traditional approach to crushes and dating. Somehow the two navigate their separate paths while living in this tiny 11-foot-wide rowhouse, which I’m sitting in right now. We shot that part of the movie in my house because it was a local film, but also because it’s where the real life events unfolded. What better space to capture that?
I also wanted to be able to argue with Chester. I wanted to be able to illuminate the sex worker lives through his research, through imagination, and bring that entire sphere into the movie. That’s when it started to click together.
BH: I think you did a great job setting up the places, like the comic conventions, the house, the places where the sex workers live and work. Since you’re sitting in the house right now it really brings me to my next question: what does it feel like? Do you have some distance? There feels like two points of distance – the distance from the events when the graphic novel came out, and now. Does it feel different from 2011 and 1999?
SYL: I have often drawn from real life events for my movies. Even when something is fictional it usually arises from something I experienced or saw. My style. The work in autofiction comes naturally to me. People are starting to rediscover my first short film, called Escapades of the One Particular Mr. Noodle. Essentially I entered a contest as a young person and out of 10,000 submissions they chose ten films to fund. I was thrilled, but then I realized, “Oh my god, I’ve never made a film before and I have fifty characters in this ten minute short.” I turned to my community. I basically cast every person in my neighborhood. My neighbor made this crazy ten foot egg noodle costume. I pretty much mobilized my neighborhood and art community. I saw two girls walking by and said, “Hey, do you want to be in my movie?” and they said, “Sure!” and then they were the stars of it.
I basically had the same approach for Paying for It. It’s second nature to write stories in my world. I cannot think of a fictional story that eclipses the extraordinary quality of real life. What happens to us is amazing. So seldom do we see that depicted. There’s other tropes that happen in most films. I value the life experience. The script always improves with living. There were years where I put the script into a drawer and did not look at it. Then I came back after having lived a bit and brought another understanding to it. There’s enough distance that it’s not a diary. I’m very well aware of the components that make a compelling story and I can use those to craft my story. I have a deep respect and love for Chester. I wanted to make a story he could be proud of and that reflected his essence and also add my perspective. I told his story through my lens, which was really cool.
It was very helpful to have lived those experiences because I had the creative keys. I could provide archival video, images, photos, our lives together. The flying box that we would put our cat Oscar in. I could give pictures of the box to the art department. It was very helpful. You’re trying to illuminate an idiosyncratic world. I always had an answer for everyone about “what does this look like” or “how do I get this music right”. It was very helpful.
I should also say I called Chester “Chester” but I didn’t call her “Sook-Yin.” She’s “Sunny,” so I took more liberties there. She’s an amalgam of myself and the actor that portrays her, Emily Lê.
BH: I wanted to ask about casting yourself – had you worked with Emily before?
SYL: No, I hadn’t. 80% of the cast members were people whose work I had sought out. Many of them are musicians, performers, artists, political activists. They’re not actors, but I knew they could perform and would have sensitivity for the material. I was able to tap into a really rich vein of comic actor community. I met them as people first and they became my friends. I cast more traditionally for the leads of Chester and Sunny. I saw hundreds of actors, but only two really embodied Chester, his humanness. Those lines coming from a different actor could make him seem like a real dick. But Dan [Beirne] was compelling, he was logical. He had a quality of curiosity and gentility that Chester does have.
Emily comes from an actual underground culture. Her community is the Montreal underground, she came from Vancouver – you can’t fabricate that kind of passion or peership. It was very evident to me watching her audition. She’s very intuitive and emotionally present. I brought them together on Zoom– they couldn’t even see each other, but it was miraculous. There was one point where she passes the book from one video to the next and they did it in sync. I pretty much said right there, “I’d like to work with you.”
Paying for It premieres at the Toronto International Film Festival Friday, September 6th!
